Introducing Talent Talks, the podcast where we dive into all things talent in the real estate, construction, and infrastructure world. From the boardroom to the building site, we’ll uncover the stories, insights, and people shaping our industry today. We shine a spotlight on data centres, one of real estate's fastest-growing and most in-demand sectors.

In this episode, Sarah Davenport, Managing Director at Capstone, and Oli Coote, Data Centre and Real Estate Sector Lead, speak to Nqobile Ntombela, Operations Director at Mace, as she shares her journey from a technical high school in South Africa to leading complex data centre developments across three continents, including her transition from contractor to consultancy to client-side roles and her insights on building teams in a talent-constrained market.

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You can read the transcript of the discussion below:

Sarah

On today's episode of Talent Talks, we are speaking to Nqobile Ntombela, who has gone from a graduate in South Africa to Project Director in Frankfurt. Nqobile has built an international career delivering complex infrastructure and data centre developments across the world and now leads data centre projects at RLB.

She brings a unique blend of technical depth, global perspective and real purpose-driven leadership to every scheme. She's also a proud mentor of Capstone Mentored, helping guide the next generation in our industry.

Nqobile, welcome and thank you for joining us.

Nqobile

Thanks for having me, Sarah and Oli, it's good to be here.

Sarah

So talk to us about your career and how you’ve got to this point? It's such an interesting background; we'd love to hear more about how you made those transitions and where you started.

Nqobile

As you said, I am South African, so I'll go all the way back there. And where I started was in high school. I chose a technical high school, and that's what set me on a different trajectory.

Because we had STEM programs where we had to choose whether it's civil, mechanical, or electrical, from grade 8 we were doing technical drawing. So, from a very young age, at like 12 or 13, I was already on a path that was going to expose me to this. That's where it started, coming out of primary school straight into that, which was great. It was quite unique and different in the province.

It was in Durban, and it was one of two schools in that province that had that. And I chose civil studies in 10th grade, and I've kind of stayed in the built environment.

Sarah

That's amazing. So, that's not a standard education path; that was a very specific decision that you made.

Nqobile

Yeah, at that time, it wasn't the norm. You'd have the normal schools where you'd go through history, arts and everything else, and there's maths and there's physics and biology, but there weren't many schools in South Africa at that point that were technical high schools. Yeah, probably a handful still. There weren't many to choose from that would push kids through that path and say, listen, this is where you need to focus on. Early on, from grade 8 to 9, we were exposed to the arts. So, those that did have a creative bone knew whether it was for them or not.

And those that did, but still liked the built environment, would go on, as my friends have, to go into architecture and similar paths. But yeah, there weren't many schools that offered that technical curriculum like we had it, and that was great. We were doing engineering design from grade 8 all the way to telemetric. We still had maths, we still had science and physics and all of that. And as I said, we picked one from grade 8 and 9, we were exposed to all the service streams: mechanical, electrical, and civil. So come 10th grade, you'd pick one.

And from there, I think many of us either went into electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, architecture, or construction management. It was different and unique; you don't get a lot of that.

Oli

But with further education, you must have then felt really kind of ahead of the game at that point, just because it had been part of your day-to-day for such a long time, sort of ahead of the curve compared to perhaps other people just trying to get into that space.

Nqobile

Yeah, 100% and less confused about the part that I wanted. It's five years of this, and either you know that you want it or you don't. So for me, it was clear. I actually enjoyed it. When I had to make choices in terms of the university that I'd go to, to further my education, to know what I'd actually go into, it was quite easy for me.

Sarah

Talk us through from that point to now, and your professional career.

Nqobile

So from that point to technical high school, I went to university, studied construction management. I did my undergraduate degree in construction management and earned my honours in construction management. And with that, our honours program was two years, and again, not many universities offered it, and still offer it, where it was a work study program. It was still full-time studying, and we still had classes every day, but we had to go to the workplace and find employment. And our university had a great partnership and was well-known in the industry.

They had good companies that they'd aligned themselves with over the years that would offer us those opportunities. So we weren't going into the market blind, and companies were going, well, you can't really work and study. That's why the partnership programs are really good. I had studies in the morning in the first year, and then in the afternoon, I'd be driving to construction sites and shadowing a construction manager, or a site engineer, or a contracts manager. And we did that for two years, which helped both with the studies, but also just as a soft landing into the workplace.

I think we don't get that much. People go to study and then straight into the work environment. And it is completely different from what we've seen or what you'd think it would be. So it was really good that whilst we were still studying, I'd get a taste of what that workplace was like. The dynamics, what was out there, an exposure to other services as well, there was procurement, there were finances, legal, there's all of a sudden all of this coming together in real life for you and translating it from what was on paper, etc.

I worked for a tier one contractor, and I was fortunate enough that I got onto a graduate program during my honours for a Myron Roberts Project. And they were doing large programs, large infrastructure projects like the power stations in South Africa, water treatment plants in Ghana. So it was huge mega projects. And you're coming in as a grad, and yes, you'd be looking after one package or shadowing someone looking after one package. But again, it was exposure.

Exposure to what is out there and what can be so fast with a couple of years on this. I'm not ready to graduate, get my second degree, and Mace comes knocking. They’d come into South Africa and were offering a graduate program themselves. So I'd gone from one graduate program to another, and it was really good from a South African perspective.

Understanding that market was really good for me. So, I have nothing against taking anything away from that program; what it offered was really good. But then the Mace opportunity came, and the Mace graduate program was global. So, it opened up doors and showed how things were delivered and done elsewhere across regions.

I went across to the UK for the first year of that graduate program, which was the first time I flew abroad. It was a lot of firsts, and I remember just sitting on the flight with Dan, who was the other South African who'd got on the program with me, and going, "Dude, can you believe this?". This is epic, we made it, we made the final list, we're flying out.

You're a boy from Cape Town, I'm a girl from Durban, and we're going across to London, going to spend a year working for a really great tier one contractor, number one in London for the consulting business, and that's really been doing things differently. So, it was really exciting. I came across, did that, and spent a year in the UK working on major programs. I think because of my background, as I said, when I was still studying exposure with Myron Roberts, Mace obviously put me in a sector that aligned with that.

And also thinking about the fact that I had to go back for my second year of the program. So, looking at South Africa, that's where things are, major mega projects, infrastructure, etc. I was put on the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, which was really great.

Sarah

Brilliant.

Nqobile

I know, how amazing is that? It was post-Olympics, and it was the legacy and transformation works. It was just great being exposed to a project of that scale, the type of people there, that consortium that had worked for years delivering that scheme. It was really nice, and they were good clients as well, so it was great exposure.

I went back after that year, really inspired and ready to take on anything, being the one who's always going to put my hand up and say yes, I'll do it. Yes, I'll go there. And that's sort of been the underlying tone of my career. I went back home to South Africa and continued working on retail-commercial with Mace.

Obviously, they were doing a few other things as well. There was an opportunity after a few years for me to go across to Zambia, for instance, to work on a refurbishment of a 5-star hotel. I did the same thing, put my hand up, said sure, I’m happy to do it. I'll go across, I'll be a Senior Project Manager on this project, and I'll be the Mace Rep in the country and not only deliver that project, but also start building those relationships and networks.

And that's how I moved.

Sarah

Did you always know that you wanted an international element to your career? Or was it just that these opportunities came up and you're a put-your-hand-up person?

Nqobile

I'm not going to say I'm not afraid because that's not true. If I go to a deep, dark place, I don't know where, I'll still have any elements of fear there. But I've always wanted to stretch myself and challenge myself. And I think I've known that for me to grow, I need to move into spaces that will not always be comfortable, that will be challenging, etc. It hadn't been initially the international element up until Mace came around, and then I was like, OK, global business, that's what I'm interested in.

And yes, let's move globally, right? But initially it wasn't that. It was just always about being the best in what you do. And if I worked for the number one contractor in South Africa, that was going to be great. But as opportunities came, I was always the one to say: Let's assess it.

What can I get from this, you know, from a personal development perspective, but also professionally as well? And I've always just tried to balance the two.

Sarah

That's amazing, so that was a two-year programme?

Nqobile

Yes, so the Mace programme was two years. You spend a year in the UK, spend a year back in your home country if you're an international grad. And that's all about bringing back those learnings into the country, and helping them build that oneness of Mace as well.

It was a really good programme, and I really learned a lot from it. I stayed with Mace for about five years and then eventually left in 2018. My next pivot was when I changed companies and fell into data centres. I've been in DCs since then.

Sarah

That's amazing. I know data centres have been around much longer than people think they have, but you got in really early in 2018. That is early for data centres. So talk to us about that, because that would be super interesting to those listening.

Nqobile

Yeah, so it was an opportunity. As a market, South Africa was a landing platform for many businesses coming into Africa, and it is still the same. But we had at that time a local developer that was really starting to pick up and scale their developments.

We also had wannabe tech giants coming into Africa and doing their own self-builds. It was an opportunity. I remember I had one project, which was a university project, which, again, you know, was a great project. It was a heritage building, and everything was inside. It was challenging technically, managing all those aspects. And then there was this opportunity to be an MEP PM on a data centre.

And I mean, people probably weigh it up and go, why give this up for a powered shell with some equipment, which is what people still describe data centres as. But I think the opportunity that this brought with the type of client that I'd be working with and for, and looking at that trajectory of DCs, and back then it was all about data centres and growing that.

I then put my hand up and said, OK, I will be an MEP PM on this build. It was a self-build for one of the hyperscalers. And it was interesting. It was the first time out in Africa. It was the first time the general contractor had ever built a data centre and for all the subcontractors and the supply chain as well.

It was interesting. It was challenging, but it was good. It was a good experience for all of us. I think what helped was realising, as a team, that we need to get this right.

We're learning, and we're working together. There were frustrations, you know. There were the 7 a.m. briefings on commissioning, and commissioning plans were written and then rewritten daily. But I appreciated and learnt a lot from that experience and I've stayed in data centres because of it.

It could have scared me away because I could’ve been like: “What is going on? Nobody has a clue what they're doing.” But I thought, no, there's something here, you know, there's something here. The buildings might not be flashy or sexy, we might not be building all of that. But from an infrastructure perspective and digital infrastructure, it's what sustains how we live.

It's what sustains what we do and how we move. I really enjoyed it.

Sarah

And presumably coming from a power background, you understood the broader context of data centre challenges, which is getting the power in?

Nqobile

Yeah, so coming from that, having seen the power stations being built, I understood the upstream topology. So even now, I'm very comfortable talking about upstream. From generation, transmission and distribution, getting into a substation, stepping it down, that's something I’m comfortable with because I was on a project that was all about that, and that was what I was exposed to very early on in my career.

So yes, I do understand those challenges now with power, the power constraints, getting power to sites and the limitations that our clients face. And we're having to deliver right now, with those constraints.

Oli

I wonder if it might have felt like you were a little bit in at the deep end at the time, but actually working directly for a hyperscaler in their construction probably served you really well moving forward from there because of that. It's direct with that end use in that sense as opposed to being a little bit more separate.

Nqobile

Yeah, you're right. I think that because they've done this so many times, be it in the US or parts of Europe, they bring that team across and sit with them on site. There's so much that I learned then that I still use today. I appreciate the processes. I understand them a lot better.

And somehow throughout my career since then, and surprisingly, I tell people this, it's been that one client consistently. It's like I pick them, the project starts to develop, and you see the end customer. So, I've got to really know them.

Sarah

Oh really? So you've worked with them the whole way through?

Nqobile

Yeah, how funny. Since 2018, I've kind of worked with them all the way through, so it's been great for me. But it was a good start, a good learning experience.

Sarah

I bet. And how did you end up in Frankfurt?

Nqobile

Oh, it's me again, you know what I mean. It's one of those things, put your hand up, put your head above the parapet. You know, I'm ready and available. I had obviously been in South Africa and then moved to the UK.

I moved to Frankfurt from London. And it was also a developer, we'd worked together with this particular client delivering projects and managing their program for sub-Saharan Africa. And they clearly liked working with me and my approach to delivering projects, managing teams, etc. And they said, listen, I'd really like to work with you again.

How about we work together, and would you be interested in moving to Frankfurt? Having seen the growth of data centres and the markets, which are Tier 1 and Tier 2, Frankfurt was then and still is a market to be in. So I thought to myself, I'm not about to pivot in my career. I really enjoy data centres and want to grow and expand myself personally, but also my skills. And the opportunity for Frankfurt was that it was just stepping out of what I'd been doing and stepping into a different role, which, actually, thinking back, was a construction director role.

It was going to be on-site managing campuses in Frankfurt, managing teams. And it was great. So that was the draw for me. To be honest, I think it just spoke to the girl who chose construction management. It spoke to who I was when I put a tick and said, "I want to study construction management.” And this was the role. So that's why I moved to Frankfurt. It also gave me that experience of going back to my roots, putting on my boots and hard hats, and being on site, and I loved it. It's a different challenge, I like the pre-con. I've done end-to-end delivery.

I really am for end-to-end, I like the pre-con, but the delivery, the challenges of pressure there, and being able to just navigate through all that and come out still smiling, with the demands and the pace of what we need to deliver and the issues we're facing whether you're a contractor, client, consultant, or a manufacturer, it's good to be able to just get it done and still smile through it.

That's why I chose Frankfurt, because of that opportunity.

Sarah

That's brilliant. And you're at the cutting edge of it all. You're in your boots and you've swapped your suit, as it were.

I think it's really interesting that you've worked on the contractor side, the consultancy side, and the client side. For those people listening who are trying to navigate their careers, how have you found those transitions, and do you have a preference? I appreciate you're on the consultancy side now, so it might be that.

Nqobile

I think I've been of the school of thought that to be able to deliver projects, I need to know what goes into building them. You need to know how to build. To be able to advise clients or manage teams and challenge, interrogate, and work with others, you need to know how to build.

So I think my contractor-to-consultancy-to-client route has been the best one. I think for me, going contracting to consultancy, I was a lot surer of myself, if that makes sense. In terms of reading drawings like yeah, we're talking about this, your architect is asking that question.

You can actually add value and input into those conversations, be it design, procurement, or how early on before you even engage a contractor, looking at site logistics. People don't think that we should be.

But looking at site logistics, will the contractor actually be able to deliver this, add that, and have that input early on, before you actually get a contractor in? That helped me because going from contractor to consultancy made me a lot more sure of myself and confident in my own ability—not overly confident, but able to hold those conversations and advise, and consultancy sort of pulled it all together.

I'm now seeing things from a pre-con perspective, managing AEs, your architects and engineers, going through all of the procurement side of it, before a GC lands on site. And then I appreciated that we actually built our projects in pre-con. We actually should be focusing on the pre-con and making sure that we actually make it easy enough for the contractor to get on site and deliver, because that's what they want to do.

They want to get on with it, the changes and everything that comes in that we bring in late because we haven't really done what we should have done in pre-construction. You know, we could de-risk projects a lot better. So, there was a lot of appreciation for that. And once I moved to the client side, hence this opportunity in Frankfurt, being that sort of end-to-end delivery person, knowing what the end product is, what it takes to deliver the end product, working it back and making sure we've got the processes and systems set up to make sure that we're able to deliver.

So yeah, it's kind of like, OK, see the end product, go through all the pains, and then go back and go, OK, how do we make that a better and easier process for us? How do we make it more efficient and effective? These are the processes and things that we need to have in place in pre-con.

This is what we need to be doing from a risk management perspective, etc., to ensure that delivery is done right. And that's what's worked for me. So transitioning has, I think, been anchored in what I'd learned from contractor to consultancy, I've just been able to easily transition.

For me, yes, it's different, right. You're wearing a different hat. You see, you're sitting at a different side of the table. But from a skills perspective, it’s the same skills. I think what I've learned with the client side is just wearing different hats differently.

I think if you've been in delivery too much, you're hands-on and passionate. There's just a balance that I had to learn and get to not to overstep, to go back to my consultancy side of things, and to remember, I'm a client.

Remember, you're a client. So, you wear the same hats, but sometimes the application is different or applied in different situations. But it's been good and easier, well, smoother for me to transition from one to the other.

It's been more about the organisational changes. Because every organisation is different, but from a role and a skill set perspective, that has sustained me and been consistent throughout.

Oli

You mentioned managing teams across those three contexts. And equally touching on skills and things there when it comes to building a team and bringing people into your team and things like that.

And,  you're looking at new talent coming in and so on in terms of things that maybe aren't on a job description or CV. Is there anything like that you look for that you feel like actually that's the kind of person that I need to bring into the team, because they might actually have some really good credentials on the CV.

But in terms of bringing them into your team, so that team is able to thrive do you have any views on things like that that you typically look for?

Nqobile

Recruiting is really tough. Because traditionally, you get a CV that looks good on paper, and then you interview, and it doesn't always translate as well. And I think what's made it even more challenging is that I do look for one personality. I don't think personality is the right word, but I do like people who are personable.

In this role in the world that we’re in, clients are saying it's really about the individual and the people that you get in. You might be a really good technical director, you might be a really good mechanical engineer and electrical engineer, but how do you actually then fit into the team?

What will that dynamic be, and how will you actually work under pressure? And it's hard to test that, isn't it? In an interview, it's hard to test that. There’s no scenario that you can put someone in and see how they could respond to certain stresses.

It's the one thing I do look for and need, but it's hard for us to test in the traditional ways in which we are currently recruiting teams.

Oli

Yeah, it's interesting. Yes, you want people to work independently, autonomously, and all the rest. And that's great because they've got that foundation from a skills perspective.

But at the same time, a big part of it is some of the softer side and the teamwork, collaboration and all of those kinds of things, particularly if you're working for a client or whatever that context may be.

Nqobile

Yeah, so we're looking more and more. So, we do want the technical skills, we need them, but there's a huge gap. We know that right now, there are new skills that I need and will be needed in the future. But again, we're just trying to make sure that we get a sense of the person and a feel for them. So, we're trying out different things when we are recruiting, meeting for a coffee. So you'll have your standard CV and first interview, but an informal meeting for coffee, bringing them around the office to see and meet the team.

You can get a sense of just how someone is. It’s very awkward and uncomfortable coming into a new environment and you're still interviewing, but putting them into those situations and seeing them around that does give you a better sense. I'm not saying it will be true, but we are just trying to be innovative in the way that we recruit as well, considering the softer skills that we need. The technical skills will get you so far, but it's the soft skills that also matter, it's dealing with an irate customer because you're delayed.

So, one, you need to just calm them down, manage them, and be able to articulate in that situation, while they are right, that you've got a plan, you're managing this, and there are so many situations. That's just one, right? You're dealing with a tough customer, a difficult colleague, or a consultant who's not performing. That is a lot of things, and you just need to get the right people, especially when it's people in leadership positions, because it can get toxic.

And I think in our industry, many people will tell you that at times environments can get toxic and that's not what we want because that doesn't really help the project.

Sarah

Regarding bringing people in, and what's vital for you being that they have a human element and can navigate relationships, stakeholder management, etc. Does that then enable you to bring in people outside of data centres into the sector, which is obviously a huge challenge that we're all facing and trying to navigate and solve?

This is role-dependent here, but do you value those skills over the specific data centre background?

Nqobile

Some roles you can't do away with having that DC experience, but others you can. And it's just having that flexibility to say, listen, there's an individual who is an engineer, but they have been in logistics and manufacturing in Germany, have delivered gigafactories, have worked for BMW or whoever and delivered great projects. Not data centres, but just from a lead perspective, they'd be really good on this data centre job because that's what the project needs.

The support will be there because they'll have the mechanical and electrical SMEs who are experts in their field. They'll have the commissioning and a team that supports that, but from a leadership and the person you want who can deliver, it's there.

They've got the experience in delivering projects. The principles are the same, but that human element, the ability to manage relationships, clients, stakeholders, etc., and manage a team, is very key for me. And we are doing that right now? We have no options but to look outside and open ourselves to that.

Oli

We keep banging that drum because obviously, there is that gap at the moment in terms of talent. And in your view, with regard to opportunities to attract and develop that talent, and bring people into the DC sector.

What are your thoughts there in terms of things that leaders could do to try and, you know, increase that sort of visibility, and bring a wider sort of pool of people to the table?

Nqobile

I'd start it early on. So, I've got two opinions here. I think the STEM programs at the school level. I think our profession, the built environment industry itself, for the sector, DCs or construction, really isn't seen as a profession; the professional sector people would much rather go into finance, or something cooler. So, there's something about reframing how we're seen by many, one by kids coming up, in the schooling programme, and us also just putting ourselves out there. We've not done that, and we don't do that well enough. And even if we do have internal graduate programmes, the outreach and how many people actually are aware of that aren't there.

Secondly, I think it's looking at our standard job descriptions, and being able to properly brief our recruiters as well. They'll help us get the right people. I think we just go, "I want a commissioning manager or I want this." And then you get a standard JD that really won't get you the top talent.

There's one looking at bringing in people in, looking at the young people, and making sure that we're creating a platform, an avenue for them to actually enter the industry. And also looking at those that are in the industry, are we actually briefing recruitment teams in terms of what we're looking for? And then once we get them, are we supporting them as well, which is crucial.

Nobody wants to be stagnant, everyone wants growth.

Sarah

And you'll presumably want people who put their hand up, and who are going to go into the uncomfortable, because that's, like you say, how people are going to grow.

One of the questions we ask everybody is what are you most excited about for the industry over the next 5 years?

Nqobile

I think this is linked to my own personal journey. AI is going to drive this growth, it's where we're seeing tremendous growth, and the opportunities are there. But I want to see a shift away from delivery. We've been so delivery-focused. I do want us as an industry to take a step back and breathe.

I'm hoping that in the 5 years, we start investing in the right things, one being people and talents and upskilling those that we already have. I'm excited about the impact that we'll have. I think there's a shift slowly. There are businesses out there that are doing things differently, developers, data centre developers.

I'm really looking forward to the shift in how we're seen by the communities we're in, in the value that we bring to them. There's really cool stuff that some developers are doing, you know, pushing the boundaries here and saying, "Listen, we need to do more.” We're part of this ecosystem, and I'm really keen to see more of that rather than doing the bare minimum because we're only going to follow what's mandated or regulated.

But it's more about realising you're part of a community, part of an ecosystem, and we can do more to sustain it, support it, and shape it. I'm excited to see that side of it.

Sarah

Tell me a bit about that. Who's doing what, what's different, what's impactful?

Nqobile

If I were to just call out one of my recent clients, I think Goodman is doing really good work in looking at that space, not only from a sustainability and carbon-neutral construction perspective, but also from the perspective of what they do around communities and engaging communities and businesses around them.

I think they’re one to watch out for. Looking at this space, I think that they are also starting out and are really keen to be a major player, but they do it differently from others. There's something to look forward to there. From a sustainability, ESG, and responsible business perspective, I'd say Goodman, but there are a lot of other clients who might not.

I'm not able to say them now, but like a lot of these startups, I'm sensing they've come from established, either business hyperscalers or data centre developers, and they're just going, we want to challenge the status quo. The way that we've been delivering and developing is just not right, and we want to do it differently.

I’m also so excited to see some of the products that come out of the market that are shaped by the start-ups that we're seeing with people who go on, listen, we've been burned before. We should challenge the status quo and do things differently. So from a product perspective, I’m excited to see that.

Obviously, I said AI is a huge catalyst for that as well. So, I’m keen to see some of the things that come out from a technology perspective as well. And that's one thing that I'd say to people who are looking at this industry and going, what should I study or how do I enhance my skills?

Look at where we're moving globally with this digital transformation, and then just move along with that wave. There’s a lot that you can do, from short courses to full courses, to educate yourself, but you can also expose yourself within your organisation and businesses if those opportunities do arise. To learn more about where we're going with this digital transformation. So I’m keen to see where we're going. From how we engage with the world, and also just the products that we are going to be deploying in the future.

Oli

It's going to be interesting to see, isn't it, where we are in 5 years’ time. If you consider where we are now compared to 5 years ago, it's going to be fascinating.

Sarah

It's got to be different. We've got to do it differently because we can't keep doing what we're doing. And for it to be enough, and that's across the world across every industry, across every business, so it's really exciting. Daunting, but exciting.

Nqobile

It is, isn't it?

Sarah

We have loved hearing your journey, your insights, and your views, and you've been really generous with all of that.

We're really thankful. I think it's exciting when we have leaders like yourself who are really making an impactful change for others who are coming into the industry, looking at things differently, and putting the human element into the data centre industry. And it's absolutely vital.

So thank you so much for sharing your time and talking to us today. We look forward to it going out and hearing the feedback.

Nqobile

Great, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.